Tyrannical Thinking.

[Azzami Bell]

Tyrannical Thinking.

Based on an incident in a local shop it would seem the jurisdiction of UK government legislation knows no bounds and has no limits.

A regular customer whilst browsing in her local ‘friendly’ Off-Licence asked her fifteen year old son what drink he wanted. He chose, she took one from the display and placed it with her choice on the counter whereupon she was informed she would not be served because she was buying alcohol for a minor.
The shop assistant was asked if he would serve her the same goods if she were on her own. Based only on the assumption that one of the products may be intended for consumption by a minor, the answer would again be “No”.

I clearly remember regularly collecting three bottles of “Mackeson” milk stout, one quarter bottle of brandy and ten “Cadet” cigarettes from an off-licence shop on London’s South Circular at twelve years old. Although this was also illegal, it certainly wasn’t unusual. So where has it all gone so wrong?

[Jill]

Hi

Making things illegal is not going to stop people doing them otherwise noone would take illegal drugs for a start. The move to ban teenagers from buying and drinking alcohol comes from the wish to stop young people 'binge drinking' as it is called. But other countries do not have the same problems with binge drinking and yet have more liberal laws about drink. This seems to be because they see drinking as something that goes with eating a meal and to be shared by all generations together. I would like to see some evidence that these restrictive laws really make any difference except perhaps to make teenagers drink more because they like to be seen doing something illegal and therefore rebellious.

[Diane Wright]

You are very right there. People of all ages, but especially the young, have an inbuilt urge to do the very things that they have been told not to. It goes back to Adam.
There have been psychological experiements apparently proving this. It does not have to be true though. People learn good habits like you say, Jill, from social interaction with different age groups such as usually found in families.

Sadly family life is being corroded. Divorce, distance, communication breakdowns...heavy handed or unnecessary intervention from social service...

It would not be a problem if everyone treated their fellows as part of the common family of human kind.

Drinking is a serious problem that develops out of a sence of aimlessness or despair. Before the government makes heavyhanded changes to the law that can not be policed they should look at the root of such tendancies to 'rebel'.

If you are having problems of any sort
www.breakout.890m.com
is a good place to look for help.

[Jill]

Hi Diane

I know that drinking can be a serious problem but not necessarily. I remember when I did a course called Urban and Community Health the lecturer said that for everything we take there is a non-effective dose, an effective dose and a lethal dose. So it is possible to die from drinking too much milk if you take it too extremes. I think teenagers go through a phase of wanting to experiment and be rebellious. The same course told me that all the Say No to Drugs type campaigns were far more likely to have the opposite effect. I was also a teenager in the late 60s early 70s when there were a lot of drugs about and a lot of music festivals to try them at! But in those days we also had the peaceful hippy Make Love Not War message to go with the 'scene'. These days I am quite scared of the levels of violence going on with knife and gun crime and wonder how much of this is linked with alcohol and drugs? Is it that young people are really alienated and aimless? Is it comfined to areas where there is poverty and unemployment?
I have many more questions than I have answers about this issue.

That link you put up seems to have a lot of good links on it thanks Diane.

Bye for Now
Jill

[Azzami Bell]

All kids need to 'prove' themselves. Even the kids in the gutter have a hierarchical culture. "You're nobody til you've 'qualified'" was the comment to the newcomer from those who went on to murder Stephen Lawrence.
(Wouldn't life have been better if they were into booze tho'!)
The government's usual 'panic-sledgehammer' behaviour doesn't help and increasing prices won't do much to help either so what will?

[Jill]

One thing that helped us was music. All the boys were learning to play guitar and be in a band and we had music being played in every hall that could be hired every Friday and Saturday nights. In the 80s it was more computers and the fact that young people could do their own designing of games as well as playing them kept a lot out of trouble. These days everything seems to be bought up by big business and there is not much creative outlets for young people except maybe doing graffiti.
I would like to see projects which encourage young people to make their own music and films and art and maybe do up cars and all sorts. How about a few real life Creative Cafes! That should do the trick...

[Diane Wright]

Hi Jill
Those are great ideas. Young people have too many distractions but not much of anything creative or constructive to do.

My son is 14 this week and has been in the Air Cadets since he became 13 but it has been a big disappointment and he is packing it in. They have several different uniforms and he can't always remember which one he should be wearing. The activities are very dull, like drill, sometimes just having to stand still. This might be good for self disapline but my son needs activity to keep his mind occupied. The main draw was the prospect of flying a small aeroplane but that never happened and now he has lost interest in doing so.

I would like him to be able to go to groups of any age to do the type of interesting things you mention. He did used to go to Woodcraft Folk but the meeting time was only 1 hour and a bus ride away. Perhaps we could now both go along as voluntary helpers - drat! I just remembered I used to do that. I forgot to mention the food work experience there at my recent interview - is it my age I never can recall the things I have done relatively recently??

Anyway we older people do have skills and experience to pass on so it is up to us to provide something for the youth to make the projects they need workable. Young people need these skills and the improved life quality that can come with them.

[Azzami Bell]

Hi,
I’m glad to hear you’re taking an interest in your child’s life and I’m even more happy to think you can talk about things. Lack of good communication is one on the biggest problems within families. I’m also amazed that any kids would wish to join anything ‘military’ but well done to him for trying.
I agree young people have too many distractions and no real role in society.
Interviewed today to give an adolescent view of the government’s latest ‘anti-knife’ advertisements, one 14yr old suggested that the money could’ve been better spent helping kids within his run-down community. There is nothing to do and nowhere to go for those ‘in-between’ kids of 12 – 15yrs-ish. Just as it was when I was that age, and not too dissimilar from the London of Dickens!

I watched my three grow up in Portslade, East Sussex with so few facilities I’m still surprised they got thro’ their youth without serious criminal activity.
One summer evening a plod appears at my open front door. He tells me my kids have been picked up for ‘joy-riding’. He suggested leaving them in the cells to ‘sweat’ for a bit. I gave him their mother’s home phone number knowing she’d agree, so they were treated to ‘scary noises’ in cells for a few hours. It was their last such adventure. I’ve been privileged to share their whole lives with them! We talk about everything!

Every summer here in Brighton, we see small ‘gangs’ of kids from the differing economic backgrounds. These inequalities as much as anything naturally set one estate against another, another generation growing in fear of walking their own neighbourhood.
My daughter Mandy, partner Matt and her four kids live their lives under virtual siege in northern Portslade. It's much worse for their next-door neighbours, -they're asians!

I believe parents need to get more interested in their kids lives and local government need to begin doing the people’s bidding, helping build decent communities with facilities for all members.

I’ve been told this is ‘idealism’, but only by materialistic people of no imagination so I assume I must be close to the truth.
Azzami

[Diane Wright]

Parents do need to be interested in their kids and spend more time with them, too. Unfortuneately such things as the back to work policies are not helping to achieve that especially for single parents. Single parents do a very good job, I believe, because I am one. It is not a situation that comes about by choice, I was widowed, but not everyone is able or ready to start a new relationship. If the former partnership broke down it is not easy to start again and may be unwise.
Ideally though kids do have two parents and if one of them is in a well enough paid job that can leave the other with sufficient time to be available for the children (in-between the underated but highly valuable home care tasking) and the other parent can come home without the burden of much housework to greet them and so more available to the needs of the children.
Going out to work at all is over-rated and we can all find constructive socially valuable things to do at any age. I like what Jill said about groups promoting activities like music, film making and car maintanance. Gardening can be a great community activity, too. We can grow our own food, plants are very good at the growing bit - given the right habitat, bit of weeding, watering, natural pest control. With food shortages not being a prospect that we can ultimately escape from (our own agriculture is only able to supply about 20% of our national needs) small scale market garden projects are a desirable life skill enhancer.

There is no reason not to have ideals, Azzami. The problem is that most people have absorbed the wrong conditioning of what is ideal.

[Azzami Bell]

Yes, I agree totally!
So we have to find ways of showing kids they are worthwhile members of our communities. From all I know of English culture that’s going to be a very tall order.
I don't think it matters if a child only has one parent, so much as if its loved and cared for.
I also think the state should not be meddling into people's private lives to this extent.
Rather, they should rebuild our education system, renew our welfare system and completely overhaul the tax/benefits system. An' thats just for starters!

[Jill]

Hi

I totally agree as well!

Bye for Now

Jill

[Margaret Hamilton of Slackstitches]

Teenagers rebel, fact of life. But if the social structures are in place this need not be a problem.
I am reminded of a story my dad told me recently. In my past life I followed my dad into the Scout movement. He had been there boy and man. I had been brought up in the sister movement but preferred the challenges of the Scouts as the mamby pamby legislations had already started in the Guides.
We used to do a lot of outdoor activities. Hill walking was a favourite. The boys loved bringing in the new year in the Ochil hills, sleepingovernight in the bothy the Scouts owned. An ill prepared Scout group from futher south in the UK went hill climbing in Scotland thinking it was fun but totally unaware of our climate and weather differences. They got in difficulties and there was a huge furore in the press. Legislation was laid down and it became impossible to do outdoor activities without all sorts of insurance and certificates and red tape. All making it very difficult for a small rural village to continue providing these interests for the kids. But not making it any safer.
A few years back my dad met one of his ex scouts. He was one of the boys that could have ended up with a police record. This lad is now a proud father, fervent follower of his football team and a member of his local mountain rescue team. He went so far as to thank my dad for being there for him as a teenager as he felt the skills he learned in the Scouts had been influential in the route his life had taken.
Now the Scouts are not everyones cup of tea but the point I am trying to make is that activities based in the community, manned by members of the community make a huge difference to peoples lives but there is so much legislation laid down now that put people off volunteering and quite frankly don't make things any safer for the community. Involvement and paying attention is what stops people being abused, not police checks.
Thanks for letting me rant.

[Azzami Bell]

I'm old enough to know how 'nannying' has buggered everything up for ordinary activities. As one of eight, in South East Lonon, we understood risk-taking was part of everyday life. Our playgrounds were the bombsites, our clothing was either home-made or from our neighbours, our 'toy' guns were real military weapons, dolls were home-made & treasured. We had no need of money, which was just as well, as there wasn't any! We all had to work together to keep our home together!
The balance between regimented homelife & devil-may-care playlife seems to have been a sucessful recipe for happy childhood.
The motto of this lifestyle was always; "Get on with it"!

I see my grand-children being brought up as virtual prisoners, scared of their own shadows, intimidated by their neighbourhoods and wonder who benefits in a crippled society?